Farmer Spotlight: Little River Farm
In this episode of the Direct Farm Podcast, we're delighted to welcome one of our newest members to the Farm Advisory Network, Little River Farm in Rhode Island. Little River Farm was started in 2013 by young farmers Camille Abdel-Nabi and Robert Payne with a vision to create a small farm that could feed people the healthiest and most nutritious food possible. After 5 seasons of experimenting with different growing techniques, Little River Farm became a fully no-till farm.
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Rory: 0:26
Welcome to the Direct Farm Podcast. I'm Rory, your host for today's episode. We've got a great conversation for you today with one of our newest farm advisors, Camille Abdel-Nabi of Little River Farms located in Warren, Rhode Island. Welcome Camille. It's great to have you here. Could you maybe start just by telling us a little bit about your farm and what you guys produce over there?
Camille: 0:46
Sure. Yeah, it's great to be here. We're Rhode Island in Warren, Rhode Island, so we are a small farm we're about three acres and we're certified organic, and we've been a no-till farm for three seasons now. So a lot of hand labor, and not too much machinery and our main crops, we've gone towards growing mostly salad greens, micro greens, tomatoes, and other things that you'd need for your salad. But we've really found that to be what we want to do and what our customers want and not doing so much of the heavy stuff anymore. Like potatoes and winter squash.
Rory: 1:31
You aren't from Rhode Island originally, how did you end up deciding to farm especially there in Rhode Island?
Camille: 1:37
Yeah, I'm originally from Buffalo, New York. And I left there to go to college in Hartford, Connecticut, and I was an American studies major. So for my thesis, I decided I wanted to write on sort of why we needed an organic food movement at all. And I was reading all these agricultural books and everything from Omnivore's dilemma to really old, you know, Sir Albert Howard on soil science. And just noticed that whenever I read about the farmers I was just so interested in, in their lives. And it really fascinated me, just the work they got to do and the lives I got to live. So I sorta had a hunch I would like it, but it didn't really work out for a couple of years. I kept trying to work on farms, but things just got in the way. I graduated in 2012 and I got a job at the University of Rhode Island working in their college admissions department. It was just supposed to be a short 10 week thing. And then I, wasn't going to go move to South America and live there. But while I was in Rhode Island, I saw an ad for an apprenticeship at a farm. So I ended up getting that and staying here. And the first day that I was at the apprenticeship, I knew it was what I needed to do with my life. I really had a hunch and the hunch was right.
Rory: 3:12
What were some of the things you kind of learned through that apprenticeship?
Camille: 3:14
Yeah, it was a great farm. I always say I got really lucky because the quality of their produce was so high. So I really just saw what that level of produce, how, how well customers reacted to that. And I knew I, I wanted a quality that high and as an apprenticeship, I was working 80 hours a week living on the farm. So it definitely showed me. The type of work that I was going to have to do, and definitely the type of sacrifices that I was going to have to make. I think the first day we did, you know, hoops and row cover for five hours straight. I was just laying on the floor for lunch and I was just like, okay, and I couldn't even move, but I got to do everything there. I worked the farmer's market. I ran the CSA. I got to seed and harvest. So it really wasn't a small glimpse into all the different things that I, I would be doing as a farmer.
Rory: 4:14
And somehow all that made you want to keep doing it.
Camille: 4:16
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think farmers are like sane people all the time.
Rory: 4:24
Then you transitioned from that apprenticeship to having your own farm. So what was that transition like for you and what was kind of the early beginnings of your farm like?
Camille: 4:34
Yeah, when I was doing the apprenticeship, I met another person there named Bob. So we were just decided to start the farm together and we still run the farm together. And I had six months of experience. He had different years of different types of experience, but we really just jumped right into it. And it was. Probably like the most fun year farming, just because we were so naive and it was just so exciting to actually be growing something, but it was definitely a very, very hard year. You just don't even know what's coming your way. You're just always putting fire after fire out you don't have much money. So, it was really bitter sweet and every year, since then, we've just tried to get more organized and more focused. We also, that year, we're just growing every single thing and every crop. And now realized that it's smart to be more focused, at least for us.
Rory: 5:36
Yeah, definitely. Well, that was kind of my follow-up to that was and that sounds like a major lesson that you learned through that process, but what are some of those other lessons that you learned early on?
Camille: 5:44
Well, it's interesting now that we are starting an entire new farm property, I'm thinking back to those beginning years a lot, because it's definitely back to that mentality, of all right what do we have here that we can make work until we fully get it set up, but I think definitely just having that experience of setting it up one time is really helping us on our long-term property to know what we should have invested in right away. What's most important, like a really nice wash and pack station makes all the difference with efficiency. I think it was really our second year that opened my eyes. We only did an acre of the first year, and then we expanded to three acres and we were just double cropping it and just trying to grow so much, we didn't have any help. And it, it was not a very good year in terms of our stress levels and just the health of the crops. So we really, after that realized, okay, we need some help. And also you need to rest the soil. You need to really devote a lot of time to getting it where it needs to be.
Rory: 6:54
Yeah, definitely. Those are important lessons to learn, certainly. How has the farm kind of changed and grown even especially the business side of things since then?
Camille: 7:05
Yeah. we've definitely grown a lot. You know, now we look at what we make in a week and it's like, oh wow. We've made that in a year, our, our first year. So definitely just really expanding our customer base and, that's been through a lot of going to farmers markets and definitely adding on a home delivery. And every year we've just been able to grow a better quality product and more of it. I've really seen how my role in the whole farm has changed. And not the one out there doing the grunt work anymore. I remember I used to just go transplant by myself for eight hours straight. now I'm really doing a lot more of the delegation and the management. And I think when I got into farming, I didn't realize how much of a manager I was gonna have to learn how to be, and now I really like it, but it definitely was a learning curve. And now I just see myself a lot more as the organizer, the systems maker, the delegator of tasks or the team builder. And I'm not doing so much of that physical labor anymore.
Rory: 8:20
Yeah. Well, and I'm sure that's kind of a weird transition to go through. And I'm curious maybe like, what would be your advice to a farm that's maybe just getting to the point where , they need to start bringing on some employees to work at the farm with them.
Camille: 8:33
Yeah, I think one use your community. We were able to not only talk to other farmers who had experience hiring people and managing people, but we reached out to a free local business network who likes to consult with businesses. They're all retired executives and we brought in an HR mentor. So she really just helped us with that process because I think as farmers, we, we should be thinking of that entire process, just like any big corporation is, or any company though the same ideas apply to our businesses. And I don't think we always think about it that way. And I think my second piece of advice in something with, I struggled with for sure is trust people let go of control, develop good systems and really try to empower a team. Cause you're never gonna do it alone. And you need to trust that other people can do it with the right guidance and training.
Rory: 9:35
Yeah, that's great advice. And I'm sure that that's a really tough thing, taking care of this thing and handing some control over that somebody else can definitely be a tough process. So that's really good advice. Well, at some point along the line, I think it was in 2019 or 2020. You guys decided to to sign up with Barn2Door start selling products online. What was kind of the reasoning for that move and deciding to transition your store and being able to reach people online?
Camille: 9:59
Yeah. it was definitely something I was thinking about before that of, I want to get my product to more people outside of the farmer's market, but I really wasn't sure how to do that. And then I think like a lot of farmers that it was the pandemic that pushed us towards that at our farmer's markets closed down and I immediately said, okay. I need to figure out a way to get this to our customers. So, you know, week one, I was using a Google sheet and that wasn't working. And then I went to just our regular website and it was just obviously clearly not going to work long-term. So I looked into different platforms and I really liked that Barn2Door. I gave a lot of flexibility just in terms of how many order dates you could have and fulfillment dates. Cause a lot of them do limit, a lot of the other platforms do limit how much you can do. I really liked the integration with MailChimp and then definitely just the one-on-one account help and onboarding and just all the different things that you guys offer in terms of that type of assistance with marketing and getting the store set up, and I just felt like it was a great value for what you guys price it at. We were getting a lot for that.
Rory: 11:21
Were there any other kinds of challenges that you had to find unique ways to overcome those at the time?
Camille: 11:26
Yeah, it was just learning so many different parts of getting the deliveries out. I had to learn how to a route planning app, and even just figuring out how, what packaging is the. You know, week one, it was just brown paper bags and it was clear that wasn't going to work long-term so, you know, once you start implementing it, you really see, oh, wow. There's, there's a lot of pieces to make this smooth and efficient. And it, you know, a few months later we were able to get a refrigerated van and got a delivery driver and it took a second, but definitely, the early stages helped me figure out what I really needed to make it work for us and our customers. And then just trying to really communicate with the customers what was going on and how to get our product was really important.
Rory: 12:18
Are there any things that you learned in that process that you were like, no, this isn't something somebody has to mess up to figure out that you could maybe like provide that insight and maybe it's as you're setting up a delivery program or even just as you're starting to sell online, there any of those things that you're like, oh, we messed this up, but maybe this piece of advice could help somebody not have to go down that path.
Camille: 12:39
Yeah. I mean, I think for us, it actually did go pretty smoothly. And I think one thing that I regretted was trying to just text and have people call me with orders and email me with orders and not use the platform. And I think just trying to actually funnel everybody into the platform that you can as fast as possible as a really good idea, because those phone calls and those texts it's as much as you want to do it, they usually ended up in some type of confusion either for me or my employees just cause it was out of the ordinary and a lot more communication was needed. If texted me last minute to try to pack up an order. So I think just really trying to push people in the platform, make them stick to the deadlines that you set and just try to get them on board with that as, as quickly as possible is a good idea.
Rory: 13:39
Yeah, definitely. I know it's something people run into too. It's like friends and family that's still want to call you in order over the phone or shoot you a text and say, Hey, I need some carrots or some lettuce or something. I think that just gets overwhelming because it's more and more to keep track of it affects your inventory numbers. So yeah, definitely trying to get everybody, at least in one place it definitely makes things easier to keep track of. Awesome. Well, you guys have developed a really successful CSA program over the years. So could you maybe talk about how your CSA is set up and how has it set up in a way that makes it convenient and simple for customers to order and get your produce?
Camille: 14:16
Yeah. At this point, it's all done through Barn2Door and our customers. They can either get the boxes delivered or pick up at our farms that are at the market. So I just have a rolling subscription with it so our customers can join anytime that they want. I have different bundles. So I have one, that's a salad lovers, CSA. That's really for people who eat a ton of salad and that's mostly what they want. And I have that a more diverse The more typical CSA and I'm trying to roll out a micro green CSA. You know, I don't expect it to be super popular, but at least just have that option. And I actually try to make a smaller box every week. I just sell our boxes for $25. Cause I always found that people actually were throwing away vegetables with it and well, I decided I'm going to actually make it a smaller box. And then I send out an email every week with what they're going to get and just remind them that they can go on and order more the store. And also they get a 10% on all other items to, you know, sort of incentivize. But we're not going to overwhelm you with produce every week. Cause sometimes I think we'll do get overwhelmed with it.
Rory: 15:38
No definitely. I mean, especially too, if you're getting things that maybe you've never gotten from the grocery store before, and there's new things to learn how to cook with. That can be a common problem. Have you guys always had your CSA or was that something that you implemented later on in your farm?
Camille: 15:53
No, we always had a CSA. We actually used to have a much bigger CSA and we did it almost farmer's market style. People came and chose what they want based on pounds. And it was a lot to manage and we felt like it wasn't something that was going to work for us. So we actually took a little bit of a break from the CSA and I didn't start it back up until we started with, with Barn2Door and I just had a much easier way to manage it and to sell it and So just having it as an option. I'm definitely increasing it every year and it's not a huge, huge part of our business at this point, but it's just, we might have 40 people who do it every year. And just to know that we can account for the vegetables they're getting every week and they pay up front or they pay weekly. It's just that guaranteed revenue. That's really helpful.
Rory: 16:49
What are some of like the specific areas that using the subscriptions feature within Barn2Door, cut out some of the extra work that you had before with the previous kind of setup that you had?
Camille: 17:00
Yeah, Well, I think one thing we didn't like about the CSA was all the individual sort of attention you had to pay that each customer. Not that that's a bad thing, but no, they'd want to go on vacation and they're emailing you that they want to skip a week or someone else has to come get it, and you're trying to accommodate that. But when it wasn't on a platform, I had to manually remember that and note that. And pass that information on. So now, now that the number of CSA is, goes onto the picklist. Every delivery day. I know how many I need, and if someone emails me that they need to delay a wait a week, I can just go into the platform, change the date. And I don't have to think about it when that date comes. You know, they're going to be on the picklist. So it's just really takes out those extra steps in the extra energy of giving people personal attention. Cause I do allow them to choose a bi-weekly CSA if they want, or if they do need to skip a week, you can provide a little bit more of that customization without making yourself go crazy.
Rory: 18:07
Yeah, definitely. How is the whole subscription format kind of affected how you're able to kind of monitor and track your inventory better?
Camille: 18:15
Yeah, that's definitely the number one thing I love about just doing the online sales in general is that there's no waste involved. It's compared to the farmer's market where, you know, you're guessing what you're going to sell. And if there's some outside event or the weather turns bad. You just have waste. So I just love that I get the picklist and all been sold before we even harvest it. And I feel like that's just a very smart and lean business model to have. definitely with the subscription, I can think the week before, like, okay, I know I have 10 people getting the CSA next week. I'm going to reserve. You know, 10 bunches of this and, we do do some buying in of products. So if I want to buy in something special for them, I know how much. And it just has really helped, I think, cut down on waste at our farm and really allowed us to increase our profits. Just selling online in general.
Rory: 19:16
Awesome. That's great to hear. in addition to kind of like how much you're able to pick and offer and having some certainty in that. I'm also curious how have you adapted and the products that you're growing over time to match the demand, especially like within your local community and provide more value, whether that's your subscriptions or just in your store in general.
Camille: 19:38
Yeah, we've definitely kept finding each year. We just never had enough greens, especially in the hot summer months when they're more difficult to grow, but everybody wants to eat them. So we really saw. The sky was the limit with that. So we just sorta kept devoting more and more beds and time to the greens and less time to some of the other crops and less space and cutting them off altogether. We're not a farm that's for everybody, like if you like the broccoli and the cauliflower and all that stuff, we just don't do that. But if you really love fresh greens then we're the place for you. And I think that really is the customer that has found us and has appreciated us. So we just saw that demand and we really saw also the demand for it in the shoulder season. So in the early spring and in the winter, so we've really also just shifted to growing more and more in high tunnels and trying to expand the season with those greens and also with the microgreens.
Rory: 20:45
I know you guys, you leverage social media really well ever done any kind of education through social media I know you mentioned MailChimp as well as some of your email marketing.
Camille: 20:55
Yeah, definitely. I'd say a couple of years ago, my whole approach to, you know, social media and marketing really changed. I used to just use it as a way to sell things, to say, Hey, we're going to be at the market today. You know, come buy this, come see us. But I really. I really needed to use all the avenues to tell our story. And what people really wanted to hear about was the people and the dogs, you know, behind the scenes though, I've just really tried to make it a lot more about the people do features on different employees do do features on us just really keep people updated what's happening day to day. Telling them as much as we can about the whole process and they want to know that. And then we supplement that. We always make sure to do various tours during the summertime. And so people actually come to the farm and meet us and see what we're doing. So we found that to be really helpful. And just using sorta that same mindset for our newsletters, just saying, you know, Yeah, I want you to know about this product, but also here's what we've been doing and here's what you can expect. And people just want to feel part of your adventure and your story, and including them in that is as a really helpful thing. And these people become really close to us and we feel like we do have a community and we haven't even met everybody that, that we feel that way with.
Rory: 22:26
I noticed in your online store have played with the different ways you kind of offer your microgreens to customers. Whether some of them are, like you said some blends and some mix. So what kind of went into deciding on those and how'd you go about choosing those and then also how you package them, what kind of went into the decision and process for deciding all those things too?
Camille: 22:46
So we found the ones that we could grow really well and tasted really good, and that people reacted to. And always ended up having a little bit extra of pea shoots and some shoots and micro radish. So. Sort of blending them all together to make a, we call it the farmer's favorite micro salad blend. And people reacted really, really well to that. And that became really popular. And so that was sort of just like a mistake that turned into a great product. And then we really found that some people were buying a lot of the two ounce or a lot of the six ounce pea shoots. So. I started putting up bigger sizes. I call them family sizes. So for the pea shoots, I do a one pound bag. And for the smaller like micro broccoli, I'd do a four ounce clamshell and I give a discount on it. And I also tell people you're saving money and you're saving on plastic. People just reacted really well to that. So that's something I, I want to keep expanding on the store is giving people more bulk options in general, because I found some people will buy a three pound bag of salad mix. You know, if they're having a party and just the more things you can offer, all customers are different. Some customers buy. One small bag of spinach every week and other customers buy four one pound bag. So just trying to appeal to everybody who's out there is really helpful.
Rory: 24:16
Well I know also in the last few years you guys launched a delivery program so that customers could get products right on their doorstep. So what kind of made, what kind of led to that decision to start doing door to door delivery program?
Camille: 24:32
Yeah. we started it when the farmer's markets closed at the start of the pandemic. And it was just one day a week, and it just kept growing growing. So it grew to two days a week. And now we're thinking of adding even another day on. And I just really liked that we were getting customers who we never had before, too, because if you think about the farmer's market, it's open three or four hours a week at this very specific time. And I think if people have, you know, kids who have to go to soccer games or just have other commitments, getting to that market is really, really hard. I know, I don't think with my schedule and my life that I'd be able to make that happen. So I just realized that there was this huge population of people out there who do want our products and who want to buy local, but if there's not convenience involved, then they're not going to do it. So once I saw that people were going to use the service, we've just steadily tried to increase it and we've just gotten more customers and we're actually sort of trying to move away from the markets in the coming years and move more and more to a delivery service.
Rory: 25:47
Yeah. Well, and I think a great exercise kind of that you did in that process. Putting yourself in the customer's shoes a little bit and thinking through like, what is convenient for them? What, what are they expecting? What would they want? What are some of the other kind of key tactics that you've used to as you've developed the program and doing more and more deliveries to make that program a success?
Camille: 26:10
Yeah, definitely getting a refrigerated van was really helpful we could just cover such a bigger area with one driver and one vehicle. And we can, you know, the drivers going out and she not only has the home delivery orders, but she has all the stuff going to the grocery stores. And, you know, it's an eight, nine hour day of driving and it's getting to all these people at oh, 36 degrees. Like it just came out of the cooler. So just having it even be that much more fresh for them really helped. And we made sure to just plaster our name all over the van, and that has been a great marketing tool. People will email me and say, I just saw your van on the road and I look what you did and I'm I'm interested. So that's been great. And Just really communicating, using the order reminders a lot on Barn2Door, once you guys told me, we'll send one out, you know, 12 hours before the deadline is going to happen. I immediately saw the sales going up and we try to make it so. It's only 48 hours before that they have to order. I'd love to somehow figure out the night before super convenient delivery, ordering window, but I haven't quite, you know, managed to do that yet and be able to harvest it and get it all out.
Rory: 27:35
The organic certification is kind of a really important part of your brand and does a really great job of kind of in a word pretty much summing up the quality of your products. How do you kind of use that to communicate to buyers the, the quality and the level of the products that you're providing them?
Camille: 27:53
Yeah, we definitely knew from one of the farm that we were going to be a certified organic farm. at original property, we had to wait a few years because of the previous management style. Three years before you can be organically certified, there was a chemical or any type of things sprayed on the land. So went through the application process and it's definitely a lot of paperwork and you have to really keep your records and it's not the most fun thing to do, but it's the only label that's out there that people can really see and know that you are organic and that you can say you're certified organic. And I know it's not the most perfect label that there is and there's issues with it, but it's just gives customers a peace of mind that you're willing to go through the process of being inspected and apply and have your farm be open to come and look at your practices. So I don't think everybody cares about it, but we always do a customer survey and it's definitely one of the top reasons that, that people do buy the product. And it can just give them peace of mind that they're getting healthy food. That's not sprayed with chemicals and they can feel good about eating it.
Rory: 29:13
Yeah, well, you, you actually just did another great segue for me because my next question was about those surveys. Cause I know, I think this is a really cool tool that you guys are using too. To hear what your, your audience is, is wanting and needing from you. I think customers really appreciate that you at least want to hear their feedback. So could you maybe talk about how you've used surveys, what you use them for and some of the results of those?
Camille: 29:38
Yeah, we've done them now for, you know, five or six years. So we've always made some sort of change based on the survey. And, you know, one example is we asked where people wish they could get their products and were saying these smaller grocery stores, and we went and approached them and got our product in there. We also just asked for, for general feedback and when I started the home delivery, people were giving me feedback on that after the first year. And it was just little or things like I'd love a lower minimum order for free delivery, or was sort of confusing to know if something was coming in a bunch or loose, or it's really helpful if you say, if they're large sweet potatoes or small sweet potatoes, or, you know, this year one thing that one person said was that they really wanted to get more updates about what was in our farm stand through social media. So it was just something really little that I could start to do on a daily basis. Just give that update. So it's really helped us to know where should we sell our products? How do you want us to communicate with you? What products do you want us to grow or buy in that we don't have? And generally. It really helped this year. We finally sat down and wrote a mission statement and we could really go through and see what were the top three things that people bought our product for. And, you know, we saw that it was local, that they like to support our business, that it was organic. And we could really make a mission statement around that.
Rory: 31:14
That's awesome. That's so cool. And, and also what a great way to learn some holes in your store, like you were saying, if somebody going there. They're confused about a product, so maybe they don't purchase. then you, if you're getting that feedback, then you can know you can make the change. I was curious how you've been utilizing that Barn2Door and MailChimp integration to reach customers through email and how much of a priority you put on it to kind of keep that regular interaction there, and then also maybe if you've had any success utilizing like customer journeys or email newsletters?
Camille: 31:47
I have started to use MailChimp more this past year. And I really made it a goal and almost a must do was to at least send a newsletter out to really just give updates on, oh, we're going to be back at delivery in a week or we're back at the farmer's market or, Hey, we just built new tunnels and Warren and here's what we're going to grow in them. I'll be at the farmers market after I send one out and the customers come up to me and they start talking about what they read. So I really see that for the people who do care to read it, they, it does mean a lot to them. And usually we, I immediately see a spike in sales from those newsletters. So right now I'm just starting to work with you guys to make a customer journey. And I'm really excited about the potential of using MailChimp more so haven't sent one out yet, but hopefully in the next few weeks, we're going to be getting that done. So I'm really excited to see how that helps just bring new customers in or old customers back. I have a feeling. It will be a big success.
Rory: 32:56
As one of our newest members of the farm advisor network what are you kind of most excited for about joining that team and being a part of the farm advisor network really.
Camille: 33:06
Yeah, definitely getting the experience of sharing my knowledge to a wider audience. It's something I really liked doing and I've been able to do here in Rhode Island, but I've definitely thought about how I could do that more. So when this opportunity came along, I was really happy about it and just really excited to get the experience.
Rory: 33:29
What's next for Little River Farm, and what do you kind of maybe have as some of your goals going into the coming year.
Camille: 33:36
Yeah, our number one goal is to get our new property set up as much as possible, even though we had it last season, we did not grow here. We have started growning in our tunnels. We have a nursery here now, we're going to do a big plant sale. So people come to the farm and know that we're here. Just get as many people as possible to come see the farm and see the farm stand and to just grow a lot of food and make our dream of stepping outside our door and going to work a reality because we've been commuting for nine years to go to work. And I think all of us that want to become farmers, definitely not driving every day is a huge appeal. So just making that dream come true this year, hopefully.
Rory: 34:24
I went to extend my, thanks to Camille for joining us on this week's podcast episode here at Barn2Door we're humbled to support thousands of farms across the country, farmers like Camille who implement sustainable agricultural practices and support their local community. For more information on Little River Farm visit LittleRiverFarmRI.com to learn more about Barn2Door, including access to numerous free resources and best practices for your farm. Go to Barn2Door.com/resources. Thank you for tuning in and we'll see you next week.